Rob_Bell_intro_RAW
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Neil: And this is from 78, a podcast all about the subjective experience of time. This is episode number 0 2 4. We're gonna start this one off with a little review. Back when I started this podcast, I had an idea and the idea was that I knew some interesting people. And I would interview them about their subjective experience of time because the subjective experience of time is something which is completely unique.
Nobody has the same experience of it. It's something which makes us the unique creatures that we are, and yet it is also universal. We all experience the passing of time and I thought, yeah, that would be cool to talk with people about. I think that'd be very relatable. I think that'd be fun for me. I think it might be fun for the people who get interviewed.
I think it might be fun for people who listen to it. I thought this is a cool thought. In addition to that, it was also me using the podcast as a tool to have interesting conversations with interesting people. And what I mean by that is. There might be somebody who I haven't met, who I haven't hung out with, who I haven't sat down with in real life, but they do a podcast that I listen to, or they wrote a book that I read and liked, or they did something else that I thought, Ooh, that's a amazing thing that they did there.
I am a big fan of that. Whatever it is. I can't just, I mean, I suppose I could just shoot him an email and be like, Hey, I'd like to talk to you just because I think it'd be fun. But my guess is if I did that, that it would not. Result in the person being like, oh sure, let's set up a zoom call. Right? And hanging out with me that way.
But, but, but if I send somebody an email and I say, Hey, I do a podcast. It's where I interview people about their subjective experience of time, and I would like to interview you, interesting person about your subjective experience of time that people might read that email and think, Hmm, that sounds kind of cool.
I'll do that. Sure. Let's set up a time. So that's really how the podcast started. That was the idea behind it. And I did a few interviews with different people and it was fun for me. I hope it was fun for them. And then I got busy and I stopped doing the podcast for quite a while, and one day I started doing it again.
When I started doing it, I still had this idea that having conversations. Is a really good way to learn things and stuff. Having conversations with other people is definitely a great way for me to learn all sorts of important, interesting, useful things and stuff. But when I restarted the podcast, I didn't have anybody in mind who I felt comfortable reaching out to, and so I just started to do these monologues.
I didn't have much of a plan. I just had some head noise and I wanted to take that head noise. And I wanted to speak it out loud to somebody else and you, the person listening to this podcast, you are that somebody else for me. And I found that by speaking, taking my head noise and moving it from this incredibly disorganized kind of chaotic thing that it is when it's only in my head and having to push it out through my mouth and turn it into words that another person would understand.
That when I was talking to you in that way, when I was trying to communicate things to you, trying to transmit my thoughts and my experiences to you, that at the same time that I was trying to talk to you, I was talking to me, I was having a conversation with myself by having a conversation with you, and that seemed interesting to me.
It seemed more, it turned out to be more interesting. Then I expected, I didn't know it was gonna be so cool. I thought I'd do a couple of monologue shows just to kind of get un rusty with podcasting, and then I'd pick up the interviews again. But I did a whole bunch of these monologue shows. Then I would edit them and mix them, and I'd be listening to myself talk and I'd be like, whoa, I just said that thing.
And I'd think about it. And then additionally, I'd release the episode and then time would go by. A couple weeks, sometimes longer than that, and I could go back and I could listen to the podcasts that I made that in the past, but I could listen to them in the present. And it was like revisiting this previous version of myself and the thoughts that version of myself had in a way that was kind of clarifying and sort of interesting.
At times, I thought, oh, this is really fun too. I like doing this. Which brings me to today, that's the review. Review over. Let's talk about the podcast that you're listening to right now. Today's podcast is going to be me returning to the roots here. I'm going back to the way that it used to be to the very beginning when I would interview people, and I have a person who I interview on today's podcast whose work has meant a ton to me.
I've been. Listening to his voice in the form of podcasts. I've been reading his books for years. There's a guy named Rob Bell. Some of you might recognize that name. If so, I hope that you're excited because I get to interview Rob Bell and you get to listen to that interview. Hopefully you're jazzed about that.
And if you don't know who Rob Bell is, that's fine too, because you're about to learn who he is. You're about to hear him. Talk with me and me, talk with him about all sorts of things and stuff, and I think it'll be really fun for you to get to know him for the first time via the from 78 podcast. And if you like what you hear, if you just open a web browser and type in Rob Bell, search that name, you'll find all sorts of other cool stuff that he's done that you can indulge yourself with.
So having said all that, I'm gonna stop talking here and I'm going to play a little bit of transition music, and as that music fades out, you'll start to hear my conversation with Rob Bell.
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From 78 | 014 Rob Bell Interview
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Neil: so Rob, my first question is, what year were you born? How old are you today? And what is the first major event in your life that you can remember having a pretty big effect on you?
Rob: 19 70, 55 years old, and I do have a very distinct first memory. But the memory that has the biggest impact is that when I was five years old, my dad bought like a small farm with like a ba like seven buildings, and I think there were 17 wild cats and a tractor, and it was 10 acres in among these neighborhoods.
And it was like, I distinctly remember like land and open space and spooky buildings to explore.
Neil: What kind of an effect did that have on you, do you think?
Rob: It was wild. There was a building on the property that my dad decided to tear down, so he would come home from work and take off his suit and put on work clothes and he, there was like a, a second house on the property that he took apart with like a hammer.
And there were raccoons and there were like wood chucks and it was like, and we plowed the field and there'd be mice. When you plow a field. Yeah, it was like alive and there were cherry trees and apple trees. And a giant in the middle of the 10 acres was a giant oak tree that had been hit by lightning, like, like two or 300 years old, and it had been hit by lightning that like wrapped around like down gashed, the side of the tree.
So I just distinctly earth soil, trees, animals, creatures, like, yeah.
And then in 1977, my parents bought a 600 square foot cabin in the upper peninsula of Michigan that like I, it must have been 10 miles from pavement, like way, way back in the woods.
There was no trash service. There was literally a hole in the woods that people would throw their trash into Uhhuh and this lake, they was like literally in the middle of nowhere and. There was this tiny little cabin with no phone, no tv, no radio, no electric, like no dishwasher. There was electricity. and we would go there in the summers and like, you'd go for days without wearing shoes and mm-hmm.
You just go wandering back in the woods. So these two spaces.
Neil: Yeah, that's what I remember. That's wild. the, the Michigan tie in when, one of the first things that I can remember somewhat vividly is when the Tigers won the World Series in 1985.
Rob: Yeah.
Neil: Because I lived in Michigan then, and everybody was really into it, and it, I, the kind of happiness that was bringing to people.
What's weird is the next big thing that I can remember after that, and this one had a big effect on me too, was when the Challenger blew up in 1986.
Rob: Oh, oh my God. I remember that.
Neil: Yeah. I would've been in, I think I was in second grade. And I was outside for recess, and I looked over and I saw a teacher crying, and I had never seen a teacher cry before at that point.
And I remember going over to some other kids and saying, well, what's going on? And one of 'em was like, the space shuttle blew up. And when they said it, I thought that they were messing with me, like trying to get me to believe something that didn't happen. And so I was like, oh, come on. Like, no it didn't.
Like you didn't get me. I know, but that's not really what happened. I'm like, no, it did. It did. And I'm like, I'm not falling forward. I'm not. And this went on for a while and I don't think I actually believed that it happened until my mom picked me up that day and she confirmed it because it just seemed like such an unbelievable thing that could have actually have happened in front of everybody's...
Rob: eyes.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: Yeah. I remember a kid in the bathroom that day made a joke about it and the other boys like pounced on him. Mm. And that making as much of an impression on me than being blown up before our eyes is literally boys of like 14 years old or whatever. That would've been 15 policing. Yeah. No, you don't, that's not a joke.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like the one group that laughs about anything was like, yeah, no, that's not cool, man. And the one dude who thought he was being like, ahead of the pack, just real like the pack, like the pack, shame bringing him in line so quickly. I, oh my gosh. I distinctly remember that. Like, oh, that's fascinating,
Neil: The reason I don't think I could have believed it is, I would like watch Star Trek with my dad, and this is kind of end of Cold War era stuff. And the idea that the United States would allow for something like that to happen just seemed completely, I totally impossible.
Is
Rob: this someone in charge? Isn't somebody in charge of that? What? What,
Neil: right. Yeah, it did. There was just no way. That's really interesting. We actually kind of preempted one of the other questions that I was gonna ask, which was if there's any specific locations that really kind of helped shape who and what you became, you know, in the subsequent years, it sounds like these locations, maybe that you mentioned the farm and this house that your dad bought that had all these different buildings on it that he would take apart with hammers.
Like those maybe had an effect on you, but maybe if you don't mind saying something more about how these places maybe. Ended up having any effect on Oh, who and what you are today?
Rob: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. I was in, I was surfing this morning, like I do most mornings. There were dolphins in the water.
recently the dolphins have been jumping str a number of times. Recently I've seen dolphins jumping straight up out of the water. So the whole dolphin is two or three feet above the water. just full dolphin opening, not thinking about a ballroom, not thinking about a government shutdown, just full dolphin.
Mm-hmm. But, I have a 17-year-old pickup truck that I drive out to the ocean for surfing. Otherwise I ride my bike like to this studio space I have here. So I will, a measure of a good day for me is how much of it was spent outside, like to this my life has. From those earlier experiences went to, you go to an office each day, you like to, now, how much of the day can I spend outside?
Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. And, and my, feeling of how much of the year can I avoid being in a space that I am breathing air that's been run through a machine, either to heat it or to cool it. Mm-hmm. how close was the food grown that I am eating? do I know anybody who grew the food that I am eating? can I do I know like even geographically, like which direction did it come from?
How far away? that movement outside is like, almost like the starting point. whereas I, in the past might have like, I, Writing books has been one of the things I do. I would sit and write all day and I would much more now go hike up into the mountain behind my house and be carrying around what I was going to be writing for those hours, and almost like finding out what it is as it sits inside of me.
Neil: Mm-hmm.
Rob: As opposed to the mind sitting there and creating it, ordering the sentence, thinking the thoughts, how, what is this? As it sits in my body, in my history, in my cells, in my memory, in my joy, in my pain. And then almost like hike and surf and ride the bike until you know what it is you're doing. Then sit down and do some typing.
Neil: Huh.
Rob: So is that even how I understand how things get made has been so reordered around. The earth.
Neil: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Is that a really conscious process for you? You find that when you're doing the surfing, the hiking, the being outside, and, you know, just being a body in the world, is that, is the figuring out what you want to say, something you're doing consciously or more unconsciously?
It's waiting for it to
Rob: appear. Waiting for it to appear versus mustering it up.
Neil: Okay. Okay.
Rob: Like, like the bootstraps, you gotta, you gotta come up with something, which is very different than paying attention to what's arising within you. Mm-hmm. And like these horse stables between my house where I live in the riverbed, and then these people have some, alpacas and some emus.
Wow. And I'll go over and say hi to them.
But yeah. the earth and the body. I was trained and raised in a world that was very much stuck in its head sense. What do you think, Neil? What do you think, Rob? Well, here are my thoughts on that. What are your thoughts? Well, my position is, I, Stan is what I would call it, Uhhuh, like, it, like just minds talking to minds.
My son calls it New York Times Brain. Okay. Have you read the latest? yeah, I have read. Ooh, that's an idea. Wow. What are your thoughts on it? when everybody actually is just a duct tape together, pile of stories and events and feelings and yes, we think, but yeah, lots and lots of other things are happening in this skin bag that's also a space suit.
Neil: Yeah, I
Rob: think that's a lot of sense and I've never to this day connected, just talking to you now, how my dad would come home from work, take off his suit and put on his outdoor clothes, his work clothes, and then he would do projects outside as a general rule. Like he couldn't wait to get outside at the end of the day.
So your dad was a judge, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he would paint, he painted all seven of those buildings with a brush. He painted a massive barn with a brush, like a bucket of paint and a like old school. And it would be dark. And after dinner he'd go and pick up his painting wherever he was painting, and it would be dark and he would be painting as it turned dark until he literally could not see it, the, the barn wall in front of him.
And then he would come down. Oh, wow. And then when he had any vacation, he would get in a car and drive up to that cottage, and then he would be outside for days on end.
Neil: Huh. Isn't that fascinating? It's extremely fascinating. It, it sounds similar to kind of, it's, it's different as well, but that's kinda what you were describing for yourself, I think.
Rob: Absolutely. And then my mom and I were talking the other day about a judge. Sits and listens to attorneys argue a case. Mm-hmm. But a judge, much like what you do it, the li listening is an art to be able to listen for hours and hours and hours on end. Mm-hmm. 'cause if you miss a chunk that could come back to haunt you in all sorts of significant ways.
So just the sheer fortitude to pay attention and be right with what was happening on all these different levels. And he would say, yeah, by the end of the day, I gotta, I gotta move this body. I've been like taking notes with a pen and listening and he would completely shift gears. How did he get through the winters?
I don't, he, he just, we'd mo he'd have project, I mean, he'd have projects inside. He'd be moving around in the basement. He'd be shoveling snow, he insisting on shoveling snow no matter how big the driveway was. Uhhuh. Yeah. He, he'd never stopped figuring out stuff to do.
Neil: This is a random question, but I'm really curious about this.
The others weren't. Yeah, I, I planned those actually, I had 'em written down in a list and stuff. I got it. But this one just came up as a result of what you just said here. Since you live in California now and you grew up in the Midwest and spent a lot of time here, do you miss the snow?
Rob: Not even remotely.
Neil: Okay.
Rob: And people here who are like, dude, we're going to Big Bear. We're going to Mammoth. Oh man, Whistler's gonna be cooking this winter. I'm like, have fun. Okay. I already, whatever those chips, whatever winter snow chips are. Like I cashed them. I spent them all in Got it. First, couple in those first, couple decades.
First four decades.
Neil: It's one of those things I think I would probably miss it if it wasn't around, but maybe I'm wrong. I can't tell.
Rob:, Well, the seasons, there is something very, very powerful about the seasons and in Southern California, lots of people will talk about the absence of seasons being a thing.,, I get it for them. I am not one of them.
Neil: The other thing that you said that just kind of. Triggered this association for me. Do you ever read anything by a guy named Kim Stanley Robinson? Mm-hmm. He's a science fiction writer. He wrote these books called the Mars Trilogy, I think is probably what he's best known for.
But he lives in California, I think he lives somewhere near the Sierra Nevada, area. Mm-hmm. And his practice is that he gets up really early in the morning and he takes his computer and he has a area set up outside and in for the first half of the day, he writes on one side of his house, I think.
'cause the shade is there and it'll work. And then as the sun moves, he moves to a different area and he writes there. and if it gets too hot for him to write or it gets somehow other, like, it's just the environment isn't gonna let him do it. He is like, okay, no writing today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
I didn't know if you've ever tried writing on a computer. I worked for
Rob: two years out of my garage here in Ojai and. It would get in the peak heat of summer, it'd be too hot to work in there by about 11:00 AM and in the winter it would get a little frosty first thing in the morning.
Mm-hmm. So I like became so attuned to exactly what was happening throughout the year in terms of could I, and it'd be like 94 in the garage and I'd be like, I am, I am un perturbable. I am indomitable. Then 10 minutes later I'd be like, and I'm dripping with sweat, so I guess Sure, yes. Yeah, I can relate to that fella.
I can relate. I took that as far as I could as well.
Neil: His books are fascinating. He's this another guy who has a lot to say about the effect of the environment on the body. That's a huge theme in all of his work. With that in mind, I was gonna, one of the other questions I wanted to ask you, are there any forms of media? This could be, you know, books, magazines, music, TV shows, films, sports, I'll count as forms of media, video games, podcasts. I don't know anything like that has, as you've moved through life, you look back at it, you think, yes, that was something that had an effect on me.
I read that. I listened to that. I watched that, and it just became this thing that mattered to me in a really important way.
Rob: When I was 13, my Aunt Jane, who lived in a barn, she was an artist. It gave me synchronicity by the police on cassette for Christmas, and I listened to it on my Walkman, and it was like being transported to another realm.
Like, who is this man named Sting, who has one name, but apparently his real name is Gordon. So apparently you can be Gordon and then become Sting. So that right there was like, wait, what? And then King of Pain, wrapped around your finger, every breath you take, like, this was, these were transmissions from an alternate reality.
Mm. Just what was just the sounds. apparently he was referencing someone named Carl Jung. Mm-hmm. I'm in Okemos, Michigan and I'm 13. he's speaking of some sort of student master relationship. Is every breath you take, like a, is it love or is it like creepy stalking? what is a king of pain? oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I would, I It just cracked open. Mm. Oh. There's like a massive world out there. Mm. And even the sounds on headphones, the sonic arrangement, like where things were spatially in the mix was just whew. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and like almost in this world that I lived in, aunt Jane, like slipping me. It's almost like some sort of like underground group.
Like, here's the assignment. Do you know what I mean? Sure. There's million, there's millions of us Await further instructions.
Someone the just the other day asked about this, and this is, yeah. And Jane giving me synchronicity and what, in what an like, I have so many questions. Uhhuh,
Neil: what are some of your questions?
Rob: What was she, was she punking my parents? Did she know the, was she like this kid, this kid need, we need to begin his education.
what did she think she was giving me and the effect that it would have? Did she think I would like? What made her think I might even like that? and then there was a kid named Andy who I met who had a flat top and he had the first minute work album.
Neil: Okay.
Rob: And the idea that, and that was around the same time, and the idea that his haircut was because of the music was like, whoa, bro.
Mm-hmm. Hold on. When, when it starts to become, not just songs, but communications about ways of being. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna need to roll up our pants or cut our hair or put pins in our sleeves or something like, or wear like a large sweater, you know, like this. There are, there are things that come with this.
Mm-hmm. There are obligations that come with these 10 songs.
Neil: So was that totally different than the music you were listening to in your at home? At the time,
Rob: my parents pop culture wasn't interesting to my parents. So it, it, that just wasn't, there wasn't like the radio wasn't on in the car. Mm-hmm. I never saw my dad turn a TV on.
history, reading, making things, sewing, building things, fixing things, but not like the Beatles or once in a while, a movie, if it had been reviewed as something with meaning or message or something, you know, some historic recreation that was deemed high art. Mm-hmm. piano lessons, but not, dude, have you, have you seen Stop Making Sense.
I like, as a father have to take, like, there was no, like, it is my obligation, so like with my kids mm-hmm. I was like, guys, today, battle of Los Angeles by Rage Against the Machine. I feel like if I don't. We don't listen to the thing from start to finish. I've failed you as a father. Okay. And I remember playing them, the first time, James Brown, spank, like Uhhuh guys.
This is a significant part of the curriculum. So just pay attention to how he talks to the band in this live recording. Okay. Or I take off your pants and jacket by Blink 180 2. I remember, like this is a, this is, this is important work we're doing here. How did your kids respond to that? I remember being on tour, they would've been six and eight and that was my first tour.
And the promoter that of that night was also had promoted my show and he was also promoting Muse. Okay. In one of their first US tours. And he was like, Hey, I finished my show and they were still on stage, like a couple venues down and he's like, hi, I can get you guys side stage. So I brought the boys side, side stage.
They were six and eight to see Muse from like a couple feet away, and they were doing Knights of Sia that, SIA that like just banger of a song and Mm. And I remember just remember being like, good, excellent. We're giving, we're training up with the way they should go.
Neil: Yeah. We talked earlier about some of the ways that maybe you were like your dad. This is one of the ways that perhaps you're like your Aunt Jane.
Rob: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's like you, everybody's parents, they gave you what they wanted to give you.
Good. Mm-hmm.
Neil: How often did you see your Aunt Jane? Was she like a fixture in your life? Was she a you see her in the summer, but rarely kind of. I would see, like with
Rob: Thanksgiving, Christmas.. Yeah. They lived, 10 miles away. Yeah. We would see them.
She's a good, painter.
yeah. And Jane, uncle Ron photographers, like really good painter. He was like a graphic designer before anybody was a graphic designer. Hmm. Yeah. They had, they had bought this old barn and like dialed it in, which now I would have a hundred questions. Then I was just like, oh, interesting. They live in a barn.
now you'd be like, that is such a cool place. You know what I mean?
Neil: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Rob: I can see now. They were, yeah, they had just, where did you park your spaceship?
Neil: Yeah. I remember I had a cousin who gave me purple rain when I was a kid. Yeah. I don't think she was supposed to do that, but she did.
And, this is the same cousin who also like, would have jelly bracelets and a leather jacket and, it was just in my mind, the coolest person that there was ever. Right? Yes, because, and, and she's from, I didn't get to see her very often. She didn't live particularly close to me. We, I moved around a lot when I was a kid.
I went to three elementary schools, two middle schools and two high schools. I moved basically every three years or so. And, but my cousin, this is my cousin Carol, she lived in northern Wisconsin. And we would go there sometimes for Thanksgiving or, or things like that. And, that's when she would kind of be like, oh yeah, you, you should know about this.
She'd let me do cool things like sit on the counter, which I thought was a supreme act of rebellion when I was, you know, a little kid and stuff. And, it's interesting because later on in my life, as I think about this. I ended up adopting that aesthetic, the, the leather jacket, the more like edgy look kind of thing that she had going on when I got into my adolescence.
And I've never really connected that until just now talking to you. Nice.
Rob: Interesting. Mm-hmm. And is prince Purple Rain, do you remember? Like those were sounds we hadn't heard before? Yes, definitely. Like, just like sounds, then you go like 1991. I remember the Violator album by the PEs mode.
Neil: Oh yeah.
Rob: Policy of truth.
What the, what are, are we banging on pops and like, I don't even know what I am. It's music, but even the sounds themselves.
Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Rob: Were, and sounds are vibrations. So Purple Rain was like a, a collection of vibrations. Mm-hmm. That it was somehow. Does something to our minds and hearts and bodies and imaginations and yeah.
And then that, and it apparently comes with a leather, leather jacket included.
Neil: Indeed. It does. Indeed. It does. Not, not for many years, until after that for me.
Okay. I'm gonna kind of move on to some different questions here. this is more those were questions about then in the past, and I wanna move more into present kinds of stuff, and I'll start that one off with the question. What phase of life would you say that you're in now and how is it different than the phase that immediately preceded it?
Rob: Oh my God. yeah. This feels like all new. Hmm. Like,
I mean, I didn't know it could become this, that all the pain and angst and
could sit side by side in the heart with all kinds of joy and peace and communion with other human beings like this, that you go through things that you think, this is the most devastating thing I've ever been through. And then. You go through another thing and you're like, no, this is the most devastating thing I've ever been through.
Mm-hmm. And at some point, something within you, your resistance takes such a beating that it dies and you discover some sort of bulletproofness. Hmm. Like all the things that were like, oh, that would be the, that would just kill me. Yeah, it did. It killed some sort. There's a me in there who it did kill.
Mm-hmm. And we're still here. So I would say, a certain kind of ease, which doesn't mean an absence of effort. It means you're moving with what is as, as opposed to earlier, I gotta muster this up, I gotta make it happen. I gotta scrape the bottom of the bucket and somehow form something that I can, and then you move into.
Certain kind of ease where it's like you're starting to understand that it, something emerges outta nothing. There's an empty, spacious, formless, something out of which the whole thing emerges. So you're, I'm much more quiet and still and listening. Hmm. And I would say waiting, but not even waiting. Just trusting something, something will emerge and we'll follow it.
Neil: Huh.
Rob: And if I'm jammed up on something I don't know what to do. And take a deep breath. Put your feet on the ground. Calm down.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: You'll always have what you need and if you don't have what you need and there's nothing to do, so the mind is much, much quieter than it used to be.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: The mind is over in the corner having a smoke half the time.
For sure. And if I'm like trying to, I mean there is discernment and there is analyzing, which are all very helpful and necessary, but there's also, if we're ruminating and turning it over and too much, then that becomes its own truth. Yeah. Like if we're pros and cons in this thing to death, then back up and ask if like why is the thing overheating and jammed up?
And it's not a against rationality and analysis and thinking things through and doing diligence, it's just when it starts to overheat and create like some sort of anxiety or angst. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Back up.
Neil: Yeah. As you say that, the thought that comes to my mind is that I think I'm pretty familiar with what you're describing.
I get really emotionally invested in something, you know, it's not, I think that something needs to happen, and this can be a really quotidian, mundane thing. Like, I need to get my kids to school on time. And it can be something bigger than that. Like, I need to write this article because yeah, there's a deadline.
Or it could be, you know, I really need this person to understand something. It's really important to me that they get this, they need to understand this.
Rob: Yes, yes, yes,
Neil: yes. And, and whenever I find myself in those spots, things are, they don't go well for me. They really don't. I can't think of a single instance where I've been able to just sort of like through force of will or something, make what I want to have happen, happen.
And I also think that the more I try to make it happen, a lot of times the farther away it gets and when I'm lucky and I can. I guess somehow remember this and, and slow myself down and take a step back and kind of emotionally divest to the extent that I can from whatever it is. Absolutely. You know, this is the thing that really helps the most.
And I've tried to explain this to people a lot and some people I think maybe get it and other people say like, it sounds like you're telling me that I should just like chill all the time and not try, and that seems so stupid to me. And I'm like, that's not what I think I'm saying. I think I'm saying that, you know, there you gotta put effort into things without a doubt.
If you don't try, you're not going to do anything. But there's a difference between, I guess maybe trying and having too much. Emotional investment in something and taking yourself too seriously and what you're doing so seriously because of that emotional investment and approaching it from a different perspective, which is more like what I think you're describing as being a listener and really, so like when my kid doesn't wanna get ready for school in the morning, I can get really flustered or, and, and this resonates.
I think it, I was listening to some of the stuff that you said on your podcast recently and, and so that's fresh in my mind here. What does this have to teach me in this moment? Like if I can stop and remember that, that there is something for me to learn right here, right now. Well, my 2-year-old son is being very refuse about putting on his shoes, which is very annoying.
But there is something to learn here. I just don't know what it is. And I wanna find, if I can switch to finding what that is, that's better.
Rob: Oh, absolutely. And what you said earlier. I need this person set aside from Suzy son, like just another adult. I need them to get that basic self-inquiry. Do I? Is that true? Just basic. Is that true that I have to get them to get this? Number two, I shout out to Byron Katie, but how do I feel? Mm-hmm. When I think that thought. Mm-hmm. Oh, it's like a form of torture. Great. So I created the suffering by a thought that I'm not even sure is true. Okay. Yeah. So like the basic self inquiry that is just noticing these thoughts that are flying through our heads all day long that are torturing us and we grab hold of them and actually think or believe that they are true.
Neil: Yeah. This, this happens in so many ways and A recent thing that has come up and will come up again 'cause of the holiday season here. My wife's family is from Central Illinois and they are very aligned, very differently than I am politically and socially and culturally. And there's another family member who has a hard time with that, has a real tough time and I think probably gets really invested in this.
They need to understand that what they're saying is actually not what's congruent with what's happening. And I need them to understand that stance. And I have, I find that I really like going to things in central Illinois, even though no one is going to think the way that I think or have the settings that I have on these things because I get this opportunity to ask them, why do you think that?
Rob: Yeah. Oh, oh. The best to turn it into like, tell me more.
Neil: Yes.
Rob: How did you get there?
Neil: Right. And it, it's weird because I think that they, generally speaking, respond to that pretty well because, and I think, I don't know this, I've never tested it or anything. It's because I mean it like, yes, these are people who live and work in agriculture.
I've never worked in agriculture. I dunno anything about that. And so they think that certain things that are happening now are gonna be good for them. And I'm like, you, you are the expert. Please explain this to me because I don't understand how it's good for you, but you, I trust that you do and I would really, if you're willing, you know, and sometimes they're not, in which case it's like, okay, that's fine.
They don't want to have a conversation. you can usually disentangle yourself from that without anybody getting super upset. But if they'll have the conversation, it's really fun to try to find out why they think the things they think.
Rob: Absolutely. And I'm noticing how many people. Shifting from like a consternation to curiosity.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, help me understand what it's like to be you anti polarization essentially. Right. Because what is it like to be you? Oh, got it. Okay. Okay.
Neil: I don't know if this will match up with anything that you've lived through. I know that younger me, which was much more impulsive and angry and I think had a lot of contempt for other people and the world in general, it was just like no one's doing it.
Right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I was kind of dumb enough to think that, you know, when I talk about this on this podcast a lot, I do a lot of shows where it's just me talking as opposed to me interviewing people. And I've probably said a ton about this, but there's this thing that, that shifted where when I was dwelling in the House of Tomorrow, right?
Mm-hmm. Nice. which comes from the poem, the prophet, your children dwell in the House of Tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. When, when I was hanging out there. I thought to myself, when I am in, when I'm part of the group that's in charge here, everything's gonna be very different.
Like, we are gonna be so much better than these fools. Mm-hmm. That clearly don't care. And if they do care, that's even worse because if they care and it's like this, then that's just impossible, you know? And then time happened and did its thing. And I'm not in the house of tomorrow anymore. I can look back and see it.
And there's some other people in there now, and it looks like they're having a party that I can't attend. And I, I don't have this contempt anymore that I used to have for the world because I've, I've lived through these things and I've started to realize, wow, it's really hard to, yes. You know, be somebody who makes decisions that affect yourself and other people and to do a good job.
I don't know how to do it. Actually. I do my best and I think I probably screw up a lot. Yeah. And I think a lot of other people around me are doing their best and they're screwing up a lot. And I don't wanna be angry at them the way that I once was. So this has been one of the big shifts. I know as I've moved from one phase of my life to a different one.
So I don't know if there's anything in that you'd like to respond to.
Rob: Absolutely. Because there's a glitch in the progressive matrix. Mm-hmm. Because it doesn't know what to do with time. This thing should be something else, something farther forward, something more enlightened, something less violent.
More. Okay. How? How less violent, how more earth conscious. How More non-dual. Mm-hmm. It, because what you're do, those people should get it. I can't believe they don't get it. Why are they so regressive? So they need to be exactly where you are. Okay. Do you have a ways to go? Of course I do. Okay, great. So you've come this great distance, but you have a great distance to go, but how come these people can't be at the exact spot?
Do you want them at your spot? Do you want them slightly behind you so that you feel like you're ahead? Do you want them ahead of you because that might actually terrify you. Mm-hmm. And even the idea that people should be somewhere that, that they aren't, that is, is that what the, where the world wants to go, where everybody wishes everybody else was farther ahead than they are, because that sounds like a hell of sorts.
Yeah. So you're right. There's like this glitch in there. What exactly is the benchmark? And then it starts to collapse in on itself because it doesn't know what to do with its earlier selves.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: To think things that it no longer thinks and believes and stands for. So am I allowed to keep growing and expanding then all I'm left with is meeting the world exactly as it is.
Neil: Mm-hmm.
Rob: I have to start there.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: And when somebody meets me. They do not meet me where I'm at. They meet me with a condescension that I should be farther along. It is one of the most enraging things in the human experience.
Neil: Does that happen a lot?
Rob:, I'm saying you sure universally uhhuh the experience of feeling like you're being looked down upon.
Mm-hmm. Or you're being judged or you should be something other than you are.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: Creates can create such, family members. Mm-hmm. Can create so much rage within a person so fast. Yes. And if you can find that within yourself, then you will no longer be wondering why certain people vote certain ways.
'cause you found it in yourself.
Neil: That's interesting that you bring that up because. And it's is gonna be hard to talk about. 'cause I'm gonna have to be a little bit vague on, on the particulars here, but I've had an experience of that. Somebody who really matters to me a lot, you know, telling me you're not where I want you to be.
You should be someplace other than you are relative to this thing. Right. And I can recall experiencing that en arrangement that you just described, right? Yeah. Just feeling like, how dare you, how dare you say this to me.
Rob: Right. And perhaps the least motivating thing in the world.
Neil:, It's a very bodily sensation of like, and then I find myself being drawn into this thing, like, I need to make them understand that. What they said was like, not a good thing to say, or something. And you, I didn't go there. In this instance that I'm recalling.
Instead, I was able to sort of like do something else, which was ask them, okay, hold on. Why do you think that
Rob: so much more interesting.
Neil: Yeah. It was doing, trying to do the thing that I'm describing, and I think maybe you're describing too, right? Instead of getting sucked into our own, you know, this is how it needs to be.
This is 'cause I do it right? Like I'm, I can talk about other people doing it, but I do this and I know I do this. And the trick is I've gotten more rotations around the sun under my belt that I've figured out. I think. Is that the, the best path that is available out of that and for me is curiosity. It's interest and being serious about it.
Not, not doing it as like a performative, tell me how you feel about that, Rob, but like, meaning, it genuinely like, okay, you've said this thing, I think it sucks, but you must have a reason for saying it. So I wanna try to figure out maybe what that reason is.
Rob: Oh, what have you heard? Have you heard people using this term sense making?
Neil: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Rob: Okay. That, that, so that's, that's not, that's, is that a new word to the party or has that been around for a long time?
Neil: I have no idea.
Rob: But you're talking about, and almost like the new, most important skill. Mm-hmm. Sense making meaning. Okay. You said like the person said that to you. Hold on, hold on.
Before I go off, shut you off. Throw things. Mm-hmm. Even before maybe I even feel what. What even do you mean by those words? Mm-hmm. Let's, let's begin with what you're saying. Mm-hmm. Let's begin with some sense-making 1 0 1 and see what even is in the space between us. What is it that we can even agree on in the space between us, and how often that alone you find out the person is saying something wildly different than my initial thing.
Neil: Right. And I don't think that people really expect that when it happens. It kind of throws the whole thing because they're, they're in that spot where they're like, they're trying to make me understand something that's really important to them and they're really invested in that and that's what's kind of driving their.
Thinking and their actions and, and all of that, they're in that spot. So if they're in that spot and I'm in that spot and we just kind of crash into each other, probably both people get hurt. But if one or both of these people can do the thing where they're like, hold on a second, like you're saying this and it's probably not 'cause you're stupid, it's probably not.
'cause you're a monster, it's, there's something going on here. And I actually don't know what that something is. I think we had to acknowledge our own lack of knowledge as the kind of step one thing. And if you can do that, then. I don't know. I just think it, it becomes a lot easier to, it doesn't make it completely easy.
It's still kind of hard, but it gets easier
Rob: to, oh, you can build muscles, you can get better at it.
Neil: Oh,
Rob: for sure.
Neil: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob: It's like you, it's like musculature. You build it up,
Neil: you
get
Neil: better at it. Explain that one to me. Like, and people sometimes are just like, wait, you didn't get mad at me getting mad at you.
Like, you're not responding to anger with anger. You're not doing righteous indignation with righteous indignation.
Rob: You're learning that you, whatever you heard on the first pass, you don't, you don't actually even know what you heard. Yeah.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: So you can, you can have that instant knee jerk instinctual come out swinging. Oh, yeah. But we don't even often know what we heard the first time. Yeah.
Neil: I found that most of the time.
It's something that person's going through that's causing them a decent amount of pain and suffering. And that's why they said the thing that they said, that's why they did
Rob: the thing that they did. I just begin with, everybody's a movie projector and everybody else is a screen.
And this person just is telling me about themselves.
If I just begin with, they just told me all kinds of things about themself. It's just a much, for me, a much better place to start. You're, you're talking about me, but you just told me all kinds of things about yourself.
Neil: So this is a, a question that I want to ask in a, in a really sensitive way, since you, I'm gonna ask you about your, your kids and your relationship with them.
You're, I'm sure that you have, 'cause your kids are how old now? 27, 25 16. Okay. Mine are way younger, so, but I've, I've worked with a number of teenagers, so I'm assuming some things here, I'm assuming that maybe you've had some of these instances with your kids, maybe where they have a certain thing that they're gonna do and maybe you think that's not such a good idea, or you want them to understand something, you know, if, how do you handle that when those sorts of situations come up?
Rob: Well, everybody is learning how to be them and how to trust their own deep knowing. Mm-hmm. So if I hijack the very real intuitive development of learning how to listen to your life and respond to it, hmm. Oh, like the, the parent who's like, where's, where's your kid going to college? They're going to Blue Knot state.
Oh, it wasn't my first choice. Mm-hmm. Who in the world cares, Chad, that your son's college choice wasn't your first choice?
Neil: For
Rob: sure. If I had my druthers, I would've, our no one cares. Mm-hmm. Mm. I've heard people talk about we're we're looking for a skin knee rather than a, than a loss of, than a loss of a limb.
Neil: So
Rob: thing, so things where you're like, oh, there's like genuine harm there.
Neil: Wow. Yeah. Like, Hey,
Rob: hey, heads up. That right there. In my experience, serious landmines just heads up. but the, the very skin, knee bumps and bruises that come along. Is part of how you learn how to be you. So all that discernment, and obviously there are a million people out there who can give you all kinds of templates, and rules and forms.
in my experience, it's a, the moment by moment discernment.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: Of what to say, what not to say, when to step in, when to step back. that's just giving yourself all kinds of grace.
You haven't done this before. This kid hasn't done any of this before. You haven't done this before.
This is new in the history of the universe. You and this kid, you being you, this kid, being this kid. The two of you being what you are to each other. The soul, the souls who showed up on earth at the round, the same time, the roles biological, there's roles and souls and you're constantly moving between the two.
This is my kid and I'm helping them tie their shoes. They're also strangely, my teacher that have like a Yoda effect in my life as well. So I'm moving around among these different relationships with this kid.
Neil: Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I had a, a bit of a selfish motivation for asking that because I know that I slide into the thing that I was saying other people do, where you know it, they tell you about them when they kind of come at you in a harsh way.
I know that I learn stuff about me when I come at my kids in a harsh way.
Rob: Oh. Oh, all the times I've apologized to my kids Uhhuh. So I was like, so I have tried to narrate, actually try, try this with your kids. Narrate for them. There's a thing you're saying to them, but there's the narration in your head of the experience.
Mm-hmm. Try saying the narration out loud to your kid.
Neil: Okay. Like that would be really interesting.
Rob: Like, sorry I snapped at you when we were getting outta the car. I'm realizing that there's something about the us, car, grocery store thing that like amps up my nerves.
Yeah. And I don't quite know what it has to do with, but somehow it ends up being harsh words to you. So, I'm trying to learn what that is. Thanks for being patient with me.
Neil: That sounds good.
Rob: It's like you're narrating for them at some level, your own inner dialogue as a gift to them.
Neil: I wanna try that and, I'll send you an email, let you know how it goes.
I think it'll be interesting case
Rob: watching somebody practice basic self-inquiry and awareness in real time. Mm-hmm. Because the kid doesn't need you to be perfect, but when someone says, sorry about that, I'm still trying to figure that one out. I think it might go back to when I was younger. I think it has something to do with money.
And it's a thing like obviously at certain age kids, you, you, you know, sermon as well, but the narration thing, I, the first time my daughter was in a car accident. Mm-hmm. we got hit right near the 1 0 1 freeway in Los Angeles in Hollywood. It was Hollywood Boulevard, sunset Boulevard. Right near the school she was going to.
And we, I just turned and, and we just got by this and we're in the street that second, right after the car has come to a stop. Yeah. And I turned to her and said, is this your first car accident? Yeah. She's like, yeah. And I was like, okay. Well the first thing she generally ask each other, how you doing? You okay?
Do you feel okay? Do you think your body, yeah. Okay. That's generally the first thing that happens is everybody make sure that we don't then, well that lady who just hit us, but she kind of hit us 'cause I turned into her. So right now I'm probably gonna need to get outta the car. I'm gonna take off my seatbelt.
Are you okay? If you wait here, might be a little awkward out there. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna come in hot with just friendly. Sorry about that. I'm gonna ap, I'm gonna apologize. We'll see, like I just, just narrated the whole thing. Yeah. After the car you might, you find your nervous system. These little nervous system.
A little jacked right now. Yeah. 'cause it comes outta nowhere and I was like, kind of loud, like just the whole thing.
Neil: I remember you talking about that on your podcast. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It happened. I
Rob: probably did.
Neil: You did? Yeah. You talked about that. You also talked about having, a conversation with her when you were walking past a store that the window had been broken and there's a bunch of glass on the ground and kind of just
Rob: Mm.
Oh yeah. After the looting of the George Floyd protests.
Neil: Yeah, that's what it was.
Rob: Yeah. And the, the weed store right next to our house, had their windows smashed. And so she and I went home and got brooms and went back to. Sweep up 'cause it was all over the sidewalk in the street. And it was just ma, it was just the Melrose Avenue in Los Angeles was just a wreck.
And the owner rushed out and made us stop 'cause they were getting photos for insurance. Oh my goodness. I was like, please don't clean up. Please don't help us. We need to properly document all this for insurance. Wow. That's the weirdest moment.
Neil: I remember that 'cause I, when you talked about it, it sounds like you were doing that same kind of narration in that moment.
Rob: Yeah. Look at us here. Look at us here on planet Earth. Huh? Just walking around doing stuff.
Neil: So the, the question I was gonna ask is if there are people who you look to now who are kind of further along than you, who you think like, okay, this person seems like they might be a decent template and, I wanna pay attention to them because they seem to have something figured out.
But as you've been talking. What I think I'm putting together here, I'm doing the narration thing to you right now. What I think I'm putting together here is that you don't only look to people who are further along than you. It seems like you look to people kind of, regardless of where they are on the time spectrum, they could be very, very young.
They could be, you know, 102, they could be anywhere in between. And, it seems like you're always looking out for people that offer you some kind of cheat codes, templates that you can use. Who are some of the people who you look to that you think, I want to, there's something there that I want to figure out or emulate.
Rob: Oh, yeah. I have two beloved friends here in Ojai who are 80. Hmm. And I see one of them. I, we have dinner every week and one of them we have, we get together, we have coffee, Sometimes once every week off often. Mm-hmm. And I have endless questions for them, and I run so many things by my kids. Mm-hmm.
And I have a friend who's around my age, who lives across on the other side of the country. And we talk every day. Once in a while. We'll skip a day today. We've talked twice so far today. And we'll talk again here after I talk to you. Hmm. yeah. Yeah. I have an, I have, I have quite a few people and my beloved friends who live right around the corner from me, I see them.
He actually just texted, well, right before we started recording. we'll have, we have dinner every Friday night together, but we'll probably, we'll have coffee tomorrow morning. Might go for a ride our bike somewhere. Mm. oh yeah, I have lots of people who I'm walking with. My brother, my sister, my mom, my mom and I are riding together.
I'll probably text her after I talk to you. Just give her, tell her what's up. See how she's doing.
Neil: That's nice. That's really nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob:, It's Friday afternoon. My friend Shiny owns a clothing store. I'll probably go say hi to her, ride my bike over there, swing by, say hi.
then I'll probably go by, where else will I go? See what's up with, my friend Marco, and I'll go see Depa and Vasu. They're having a, making a feast tonight, so we'll ride my bike over there. Wow. That's a, that's a full dance card, man. That's very cool. My sister, my, my daughter and I will watch F1 on Sunday together.
Neil: The reason's I wanted to say this real, because I wanna say it, it's just about me saying this, I think.
But, the reason I ask that you, the question, and I ask other people this question, but I you specifically about people who you look to is that you're one of the people who I look to because you, I think, actually provide this example, whether, you know you're doing it or not. That has meant a lot to me just by making the things that you make, putting it out there into the world, in the way that you do the books that you write, when you do your audio books and you tear up while you're reading them, you know, like that is something that I hear.
I witness that and I think this is the way that I hope I can be when I am the best version of myself. And so it's just really cool for me to get a chance to talk to somebody who. I have that relationship within my head, right? Like, 'cause I just consume things that you, you make, and then I get a chance to talk to you and it's really interesting for me to have that experience.
So thank you for that. Oh
Rob: man, my pleasure.
Neil: I'm going to, switch gears here a little bit as well and ask you about, some future stuff. And the, the question I have about the future, is there anything that you think about that kinda like haunts your thoughts sometimes that you worry about these things happening at some point in your future?
Rob: Mm, yeah. There are a number of things, but then they did happen, so.
Neil: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Rob: perhaps sometimes if we, that worry is actually feeding. Hmm. If you think about worry as a sort of energy, do we feed things and then they grow and then we wonder why they grow? Yeah. Like that person is really mean. Wow.
Are they so mean? And we dwell on how mean they are. And then guess are they just objectively separated from us, unentangled from us getting meaner? Or are they getting meaner? Are we watering something And then wondering why it grows. Yeah., So I'm often anything that I give power and energy to, in my mind, there is due diligence and awareness and being responsible and, and I would say shrewd and prudent and all sorts of adult words.
Mm-hmm. And then there is this ever so slight tilt. Into feeding it. Mm-hmm. Like feeding it and then it grows.
Neil: Is
Rob: there
Neil: things that you found will help you not feed it?
Rob:, Like do you know anybody who always complains about air travel but then they seem to get their flights canceled more than other people and they're like, we had to spend the night in Toledo because the like, I just find it fascinating how many people I've observed who are very loudly, often against different things, but all seem to have a whole series of stories to back that up.
And you're like. Is there, is this all the same
Neil: thing?, I was going somewhere on an airplane and there was issues with it. And I remember sitting next to this woman who was traveling with some two small kids and she was very stressed out. And I asked her if there's something I could do to help her.
'cause I have kids. And I'm like, I empathize, like you all right? You know, you, you need anything. And she just, she said a lot of stuff about how angry she was at the situation. I remember doing the thing where it's like, this is interesting. What can this teach me right here, right now, talking to this very stressed out person about air travel?
And, you know, I don't know that it was the most interesting conversation that either of us had that day. But, there, there is a lot there, I think in those weird situations. Mm-hmm. There's always something. To be taught. And I think for me, I don't, I don't know if I'm a good yardstick or not. It, the lesson I get taught by other people, the reminder maybe I get given by other people is don't take yourself and your life so seriously.
Rob: Oh. Oh. If you do not make friends with the absurdity of it, you're in trouble.
Neil: Yeah.
Rob: It can't be, it can't be born. It's too heavy.
Neil: And when I've tried saying that to people, again, some people have this reaction of like, you've gotta be kidding me. Like, everything's just a joke to you. No, not everything is a joke to me, but I mean, I'm really important.
Oh no, you're taking it more
Rob: seriously when you find the wink and the absurdity. No, it's, it's the opposite of a joke. Yeah. The joke is what takes you into the holy and the sacred. Yeah. And the extraordinary wonder of being here.
Neil: Did you ever watch the TV show? The Young Pope?
Rob:. Oh, I do remember that.
maybe like an episode.
Neil: There's this moment in it that sometimes comes to me in these, these instances. so here's the, the setup basically, and there's some spoilers in this, but nothing super significant. so this guy who's the pope for a long time, he refuses to be seen in public. He won't have his image printed on anything.
He's like squirreled away. And he's he goes to, he's supposed to go to this African country. There's a lot of war and famine and bad stuff going on, and he's supposed to make an appearance and he doesn't show up. And so everybody's just kinda like waiting for him. And then his voice comes on the speakers and he says,
that he, he says a lot of things, I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but he says he's been all over the country and he's seen war and he's seen famine and he's seen sort of the terrible things that humans can do to one another.
And he says that he reads the letters that kids send to him. And no kid ever writes to him saying that they want war. He said, but we are all guilty of war. We are all guilty of hate, but just as guilty as we are of this, we could be guilty of peace if we just looked at one another and realized that everything that we need is here.
You know, and I, it was a TV show, but it had an effect on me. I think about this, this a lot, and it's just like, wow, that is so true. You know? there's this song by a band called Cloud Cult, and one of their, their lyrics is that, everything you need is here, and everything you fear is here. It just keeps holding you up.
It just keeps holding you up. And, and I'm like, yeah, that's really so true, isn't it?
Rob: Yeah.
Neil: Hmm. Hmm.
Rob: Well
Neil: said. Okay. Well, do you have any questions that you wanted to ask? I asked a lot of questions. I loved them.
Rob: That was great. Okay. Mm-hmm. You still got me thinking about, the police synchronicity.
We traveled a great distance from there to here.
Neil: We sure did, didn't we?